Dr Paul Callaghan on Wellbeing and Relationships

Part two of a three-part interview with Dr Paul Callaghan, author, storyteller, dancer and consultant

This article is part of Circular Sydney, ReCo’s initiative to empower sustainable businesses, supported by the City of Sydney Knowledge Exchange grant. See how it came to life in our case study.

Interviewee: Dr Paul Callaghan

Interviewee: Dr Paul Callaghan

, Author, storyteller, dancer and consultant

Author, storyteller, dancer and consultant

, The Dreaming Path

Written by

, Matthew Wright-Simon

, Danling Xiao

Serpent and animal track designs drawn into red desert sand
Image: JanKratochvila / Getty Images / iStock

Summary

Science defines wellbeing as the absence of symptoms. The United Nations adds mind, body, spirit and social. In part two of three, Dr Paul Callaghan sets out the Aboriginal definition, which extends wellbeing to everyone on Country at once, describes the three levels of relationship that measure a life, and asks why a world of 7.8 billion people organises itself around competition rather than sharing.

What this interview covers

  • Part 2: wellbeing, relationship & sharing

  • The Aboriginal definition of wellbeing

  • The three levels of relationships

  • Reshaping the world from competing to sharing

In this three-part series, Dr. Paul Callaghan invites us to explore the wisdom of Aboriginal culture, and how it can help design a better world:

We can’t be well in an isolated way. We can only be well when we are one.

Dr Paul Callaghan, author, storyteller, dancer and consultant

Part 2: wellbeing, relationship & sharing

The Aboriginal definition of wellbeing

From a scientific perspective, wellbeing is a lack of symptoms. The United Nations’ definition of wellbeing is wellbeing in mind, body, spirit and social. A bit better, but it still falls short of the Aboriginal definition of wellbeing.

The Aboriginal definition of wellbeing is, I must be well, mind, body and spirit. But so does everyone around me—Aboriginal and non-Aboriginal people on Country need to be well, mind, body and spirit.

Wellbeing is about all of us. We are one. We can’t be well in an isolated way. We can only be well when we are one. It’s all about unity and harmony.

Think of my people, the Saltwater people, our way of living, knowing, being and doing—we were very content. We knew Country so well, we knew where all the food was. We didn’t have to pay off a mortgage. We didn’t have to get the latest car. We only worked half an hour a day to survive.

For Aboriginal people, the Country gave us everything. We gathered food as we travelled. We didn’t leave an unsustainable footprint because we needed to come back and find the food again. As we travelled, we shared stories. We had ceremonies and spiritual sharing. That was the way we lived.

We can’t go back there, but we can ask ourselves, what can we learn from that way of living? As we talk about design, how can we design our life?

The three levels of relationships

In the Western world, success is forced upon us from when we’re young at school. We need to be successful in education and career to have material wealth, power and influence.

That’s why social media and celebrities are problematic. They iconise people and people say I want to be like them. In Aboriginal society, we don’t want to be like anybody. That’s not how we measure the richness of our lives.

We say:I want to walk my footsteps, and give to my Place and all things in my Place. When we leave this world, we leave our story behind. Make it the best story possible.

The best story possible isn’t I’ve got all this material wealth. The best story possible is my relationships.

  • What are my relationships?

  • How have I lived my life sharing love and kindness?

  • How have I lived my life with respect, love and humility?

With design, it’s not the design itself. It’s what you brought to the world with that design, and how it touches humanity and creates enjoyment.

Think about the three levels of relationship. They’re not hierarchical, just three different things:

  • Relationship with yourself. Who am I? Why am I designing? And how does that reflect who I am?

  • Relationships with others. How do we share our story with others? How do we interact? How do we build communities?

  • Relationship with Country. How do I care for Country? How do I care for my Place and all things in my Place?

Reshaping the world from competing to sharing

In the Western world, our whole life is about competition. We fight from school. We fight each other’s businesses to get an edge in what’s called a competitive market.

We have 7.8 billion people in the world. There’s enough resources for everyone if we share it. We’ve got a few with a lot, and a lot with a few, because we haven’t got the will to re-shape it.

Most Western companies are very deficit-based. They say, we’re not good enough. We need to be better and stronger. We need to have stretch targets.

An Aboriginal person says, I’m good. Now the Western world will say, but we want to make you great. The Aboriginal person says I’m happy with being good. I don’t need to be the best.

The Old People say, spiritually, everything including people, is conceived in love. We’re born in love. We live in love. When our time comes, we go back to loving our Mother. We’re born perfect, so we don’t have to compare ourselves to anybody. Our only obligation is to walk our footsteps and care for our Place, and all things in our Place.

I particularly love the way Stephen King talks about how he writes. He says a story is like a dinosaur fossil in the sand. It’s already there. You’ve just got to bring it up without breaking too many bones.

When I write, I do what Stephen King does. I don’t set up a story. I don’t need to break things. I just need to let the story come to me. It taps into spirituality. Things are already given to us. We just need to bring them together. We don’t have to compete.

In Western world, a lot of people hold on at all costs, because it gives them what’s called a competitive advantage. How do we come up with a way where we share, but not at the expense of others? It comes to a premise in Aboriginal ways of thinking: We aren’t about holding on. We pass on.

This is Part 2 of the three-part interview with Dr. Paul Callaghan: Part 1: Care for Country Part 3: Leadership

Read Dr Paul Callaghan’s book, written with Uncle Paul Gordon The Dreaming Path: Indigenous Thinking to Change Your Life

Frequently asked questions

What is the Aboriginal definition of wellbeing?

That you must be well in mind, body and spirit, and so must everyone around you, Aboriginal and non-Aboriginal alike. Wellbeing cannot be held in isolation.

What are the three levels of relationship?

Relationship with yourself, relationship with others, and relationship with Country. They are not hierarchical, and together they are how the richness of a life is measured.

How does this change how success is defined?

Western success is framed as education, career, material wealth, power and influence. Dr Callaghan describes an alternative: to walk your own footsteps, give to your Place, and leave the best story behind you.

Why is competition a problem?

There are enough resources for 7.8 billion people if they are shared. What prevents it, in his account, is the will to reshape a system where a few have a lot and a lot have a few.

What can design learn from this?

That the design itself matters less than what it brought to the world, how it touches humanity, and the enjoyment it creates.

How did Saltwater people live?

Knowing Country well enough to know where the food was, working around half an hour a day to survive, gathering as they travelled, and leaving a footprint light enough that they could return and find food again.

Written by

Matthew Wright-Simon

Editor

Matthew Wright-Simon is a creative facilitator and founder of Engage Change, a specialised engagement practice that has led many strategic projects, forums and initiatives across the commercial, government and not-for-profit sectors. Matthew also runs Newday Leadership Summit.

Danling Xiao

Editor

Danling Xiao is an award-winning entrepreneur and Strategic Director at ReCo. With over a decade of experience spanning brand strategy, customer insight and content marketing, she helps founders and leadership teams navigate complex, highly regulated markets to make confident, high-stakes decisions.

What We Do

AI-Ready Website

We build your website so AI can read, quote and cite. A system your team can extend without a developer.

Wasteland art installation suspended in a Sydney atrium. Low-angle shot of a multi-story glass building atrium with an intricate installation of orange spheres suspended from the ceiling, representing systematic structure and connectivity. Created by Danling Xiao, Mundane Matters. Copyright ReCo. Photo by Katherine Griffiths for City of Sydney.

Content System

We turn your expertise into a reliable pipeline of high-performing content. Strategy, creative and AI working together.

Wasteland art installation suspended in a Sydney atrium. Low-angle shot of a multi-story glass building atrium with an intricate installation of orange spheres suspended from the ceiling, representing systematic structure and connectivity. Created by Danling Xiao, Mundane Matters. Copyright ReCo. Photo by Katherine Griffiths for City of Sydney.

AI Innovation

We build custom AI-powered marketing systems for your organisation. Research, verification, and content production, all centred on your brand.

ReCo LIVE 2025 team workshop collaborating around a laptop in Sydney. A collaborative team of marketing professionals and business owners gathered around a laptop during an AI and strategy workshop. Photo by Jason de Plater for ReCo. Event supported by the City of Sydney.

What We Do

AI-Ready Website

We build your website so AI can read, quote and cite. A system your team can extend without a developer.

Wasteland art installation suspended in a Sydney atrium. Low-angle shot of a multi-story glass building atrium with an intricate installation of orange spheres suspended from the ceiling, representing systematic structure and connectivity. Created by Danling Xiao, Mundane Matters. Copyright ReCo. Photo by Katherine Griffiths for City of Sydney.

Content System

We turn your expertise into a reliable pipeline of high-performing content. Strategy, creative and AI working together.

Wasteland art installation suspended in a Sydney atrium. Low-angle shot of a multi-story glass building atrium with an intricate installation of orange spheres suspended from the ceiling, representing systematic structure and connectivity. Created by Danling Xiao, Mundane Matters. Copyright ReCo. Photo by Katherine Griffiths for City of Sydney.

AI Innovation

We build custom AI-powered marketing systems for your organisation. Research, verification, and content production, all centred on your brand.

ReCo LIVE 2025 team workshop collaborating around a laptop in Sydney. A collaborative team of marketing professionals and business owners gathered around a laptop during an AI and strategy workshop. Photo by Jason de Plater for ReCo. Event supported by the City of Sydney.

What We Do

AI-Ready Website

We build your website so AI can read, quote and cite. A system your team can extend without a developer.

Wasteland art installation suspended in a Sydney atrium. Low-angle shot of a multi-story glass building atrium with an intricate installation of orange spheres suspended from the ceiling, representing systematic structure and connectivity. Created by Danling Xiao, Mundane Matters. Copyright ReCo. Photo by Katherine Griffiths for City of Sydney.

Content System

We turn your expertise into a reliable pipeline of high-performing content. Strategy, creative and AI working together.

Wasteland art installation suspended in a Sydney atrium. Low-angle shot of a multi-story glass building atrium with an intricate installation of orange spheres suspended from the ceiling, representing systematic structure and connectivity. Created by Danling Xiao, Mundane Matters. Copyright ReCo. Photo by Katherine Griffiths for City of Sydney.

AI Innovation

We build custom AI-powered marketing systems for your organisation. Research, verification, and content production, all centred on your brand.

ReCo LIVE 2025 team workshop collaborating around a laptop in Sydney. A collaborative team of marketing professionals and business owners gathered around a laptop during an AI and strategy workshop. Photo by Jason de Plater for ReCo. Event supported by the City of Sydney.

More from Circular Sydney