Dr Paul Callaghan on Aboriginal Leadership

Part three of a three-part interview with Dr Paul Callaghan, author, storyteller, dancer and consultant

This article is part of Circular Sydney, ReCo’s initiative to empower sustainable businesses, supported by the City of Sydney Knowledge Exchange grant. See how it came to life in our case study.

City of Sydney

Interviewee: Dr Paul Callaghan

Interviewee: Dr Paul Callaghan

, Author, storyteller, dancer and consultant

Author, storyteller, dancer and consultant

, The Dreaming Path

Written by

, Matthew Wright-Simon

, Danling Xiao

Title card from the ReCo Circular Sydney series reading Dr Paul Callaghan, author, storyteller, dancer and consultant, with the Aboriginal flag
Image: JanKratochvila / Getty Images / iStock

Summary

Western leadership is usually defined as directing people and resources towards set outcomes in a set timeframe. In part three of three, Dr Paul Callaghan, once the first Aboriginal chief executive of TAFE NSW, offers an Aboriginal definition built around responsibility to Place and to your children’s children’s children’s children, and asks why election and funding cycles keep leaders thinking in the short term.

What this interview covers

  • Part 3: leadership

  • Leadership is fulfilling my responsibility to care for my Place and all things in my Place—and for my children’s children’s children’s children.

  • What are my responsibilities as a leader?

  • Look inward, lead for the right reasons

In this three-part series, Dr. Paul Callaghan invites us to explore the wisdom of Aboriginal culture, and how it can help design a better world:

Leadership is fulfilling my responsibility to care for my Place and all things in my Place—and for my children’s children’s children’s children

Dr Paul Callaghan, author, storyteller, dancer and consultant

PART 3: Leadership

Now I’m going to talk about leading, which brings this all together.

I’ve had a blessed career. 10 years ago, I was the most senior Aboriginal public servant in the public sector in NSW. Before then I was the first Aboriginal person to become the CEO of TAFE NSW.

Wonderful job. Learning and education, what a wonderful area to work in. But I find that Western leadership is problematic, and has a lot of detrimental aspects, when it comes to caring for our Place and all things in our Place.

Western leadership, roughly defined, is leading a group of people and other resources to achieve delineated outcomes in a given timeframe. It misses the point, because another layer is needed. Based on my time with people all over Australia, I’ve created an Aboriginal definition of leadership:

Leadership is fulfilling my responsibility to care for my Place and all things in my Place—and for my children’s children’s children’s children.

Wherever I go, the old people talk about their communities since time began. The Elders never make decisions just about now. They always think about what the implications are for my children’s children’s children’s children.

Do our leaders do that? Probably not. We’re driven by election cycles. It impacts policy, inflation and all things that are impacting the corporate world all the time. While in the government sectors and NGOs, the money is handed down by politicians.

So we’ve got these waves of cycles that are driving all sorts of behaviours. It’s unhealthy because it doesn’t think about my children’s children’s children’s children.

If you look at what’s happening now, global warming, we would never have had that impact in the Aboriginal society. If there was a potential to do what our people would say, we need to think about what’s going to be happening in 200 years time. Our children deserve better. We always need to think about the long term.

What are my responsibilities as a leader?

What that comes down to is another key R word isresponsibilities. What are my responsibilities?

  • What are my responsibilities to share and care for?

  • What are my responsibilities in terms of doing the right thing?

  • What are my responsibilities as a leader?

My responsibilities as a leader, as an Aboriginal person, is thinking about my children’s children’s children’s children, my community and Country. I need to earn a living, but I’m also going to leave a footprint on this earth.

As a leader, I sit in my office or my workplace. I’m diligent. I’m meeting outcomes, but also, how am I using my influence to support my community? Am I using my influence to support Country? How am I using my influence to support people on the other side of the world?

Look inward, lead for the right reasons

A leader is someone who creates great stories. If you’re not creating great stories, you’re not fulfilling the responsibilities of a leader. In terms of leadership in design,think about how I am using my influence to create a better world.

An Elder shared with me amazing wisdom. Some time ago a young man was watching television with an Elder.

The Elder started to get agitated, really angry. And he pointed at the television. It was a politician with an Aboriginal man. The young man asked, what’s wrong, Uncle? Why are you so upset?

The Elder said, see, they see you there, boy. That politician there. He’s supposed to be a leader, but he’s not leading anybody or anything. He’s not leaving any footprints in the sand. He’s not leaving anything for anyone to follow. There are no tracks.

The Elder pointed at the young fella. He said, when you grow up, you always leave footsteps for others to follow. And they’ve got to be good footsteps.

That’s a challenge for anyone as a leader: you need to look inward and lead for the right reasons. As a designer you need to design for the right reasons.

Since I’m an author, I need to write for the right reasons. I’m also an educator and I need to teach for the right reasons. I’m also a consultant and I take on a project for the right reasons. I won’t work for people who look for tokenism. I only work with people who want to create authentic change for our communities.

In conclusion, we’ve talked about caring for Country, relationships and leadership. Putting it all together, what we need to design a better world is:

  1. First, be there for the right reasons.

  2. Look inward and know who you are. Tap into the resources that are around you, including Country, and build relationships.

  3. Then lead for the right reasons.

This is Part 3 of the three-part interview with Dr. Paul Callaghan. Part 1: Care for Country Part 2: Wellbeing, relationship & sharing

Read Dr Paul Callaghan’s book, written with Uncle Paul Gordon The Dreaming Path: Indigenous Thinking to Change Your Life

Frequently asked questions

What is the Aboriginal definition of leadership?

Fulfilling your responsibility to care for your Place and all things in it, and for your children’s children’s children’s children. Elders never make decisions for the present alone.

What is wrong with Western leadership?

Dr Callaghan describes it as leading people and resources to set outcomes in a given timeframe, which misses a layer. Election cycles and funding cycles push leaders towards the short term.

What does a leader owe beyond their job?

He frames it as influence: how you use your position to support your community, to support Country, and to support people on the other side of the world, alongside meeting your outcomes.

How should leadership be judged?

By the stories it creates. In his words, a leader who is not creating great stories is not fulfilling the responsibilities of a leader.

What was Dr Callaghan’s career in government?

He was the most senior Aboriginal public servant in the New South Wales public sector, and before that the first Aboriginal person to become chief executive of TAFE NSW.

How does this apply to design?

By asking how your influence is being used to create a better world, rather than treating the design as the end in itself.

Written by

Matthew Wright-Simon

Editor

Matthew Wright-Simon is a creative facilitator and founder of Engage Change, a specialised engagement practice that has led many strategic projects, forums and initiatives across the commercial, government and not-for-profit sectors. Matthew also runs Newday Leadership Summit.

Danling Xiao

Editor

Danling Xiao is an award-winning entrepreneur and Strategic Director at ReCo. With over a decade of experience spanning brand strategy, customer insight and content marketing, she helps founders and leadership teams navigate complex, highly regulated markets to make confident, high-stakes decisions.

What We Do

AI-Ready Website

We build your website so AI can read, quote and cite. A system your team can extend without a developer.

Wasteland art installation suspended in a Sydney atrium. Low-angle shot of a multi-story glass building atrium with an intricate installation of orange spheres suspended from the ceiling, representing systematic structure and connectivity. Created by Danling Xiao, Mundane Matters. Copyright ReCo. Photo by Katherine Griffiths for City of Sydney.

Content System

We turn your expertise into a reliable pipeline of high-performing content. Strategy, creative and AI working together.

Wasteland art installation suspended in a Sydney atrium. Low-angle shot of a multi-story glass building atrium with an intricate installation of orange spheres suspended from the ceiling, representing systematic structure and connectivity. Created by Danling Xiao, Mundane Matters. Copyright ReCo. Photo by Katherine Griffiths for City of Sydney.

AI Innovation

We build custom AI-powered marketing systems for your organisation. Research, verification, and content production, all centred on your brand.

ReCo LIVE 2025 team workshop collaborating around a laptop in Sydney. A collaborative team of marketing professionals and business owners gathered around a laptop during an AI and strategy workshop. Photo by Jason de Plater for ReCo. Event supported by the City of Sydney.

What We Do

AI-Ready Website

We build your website so AI can read, quote and cite. A system your team can extend without a developer.

Wasteland art installation suspended in a Sydney atrium. Low-angle shot of a multi-story glass building atrium with an intricate installation of orange spheres suspended from the ceiling, representing systematic structure and connectivity. Created by Danling Xiao, Mundane Matters. Copyright ReCo. Photo by Katherine Griffiths for City of Sydney.

Content System

We turn your expertise into a reliable pipeline of high-performing content. Strategy, creative and AI working together.

Wasteland art installation suspended in a Sydney atrium. Low-angle shot of a multi-story glass building atrium with an intricate installation of orange spheres suspended from the ceiling, representing systematic structure and connectivity. Created by Danling Xiao, Mundane Matters. Copyright ReCo. Photo by Katherine Griffiths for City of Sydney.

AI Innovation

We build custom AI-powered marketing systems for your organisation. Research, verification, and content production, all centred on your brand.

ReCo LIVE 2025 team workshop collaborating around a laptop in Sydney. A collaborative team of marketing professionals and business owners gathered around a laptop during an AI and strategy workshop. Photo by Jason de Plater for ReCo. Event supported by the City of Sydney.

What We Do

AI-Ready Website

We build your website so AI can read, quote and cite. A system your team can extend without a developer.

Wasteland art installation suspended in a Sydney atrium. Low-angle shot of a multi-story glass building atrium with an intricate installation of orange spheres suspended from the ceiling, representing systematic structure and connectivity. Created by Danling Xiao, Mundane Matters. Copyright ReCo. Photo by Katherine Griffiths for City of Sydney.

Content System

We turn your expertise into a reliable pipeline of high-performing content. Strategy, creative and AI working together.

Wasteland art installation suspended in a Sydney atrium. Low-angle shot of a multi-story glass building atrium with an intricate installation of orange spheres suspended from the ceiling, representing systematic structure and connectivity. Created by Danling Xiao, Mundane Matters. Copyright ReCo. Photo by Katherine Griffiths for City of Sydney.

AI Innovation

We build custom AI-powered marketing systems for your organisation. Research, verification, and content production, all centred on your brand.

ReCo LIVE 2025 team workshop collaborating around a laptop in Sydney. A collaborative team of marketing professionals and business owners gathered around a laptop during an AI and strategy workshop. Photo by Jason de Plater for ReCo. Event supported by the City of Sydney.

More from Circular Sydney